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Warmonger,

No bashing here. I agree it does appear they are making the game a bit simpler, and although I havnt really red anythign on the rumors for the BA and Chaos, the DA does seem overly simple.

To be honest, as a new SM player it was a help, but I could easily see the inherant difficulties in the new DA army unit composition. I was wondering how often the 2 half size teams woudl be employed due to the easier loss of a scoring unit. 3 deaths and you can now forget the squad basically. 6 man squads would have been soo much better, but alas...

As for your deathwing, I will have to check my dex. I though if you included the Deathwing Leader(Belial?) can't remember which it is.. you could then use Term Squads as Elite, FA, and Troops. Did I misread this? I guess this does force the purchase of the First Captain though so you have an inherant point sink there.

Hmmm.. I am building a DA army now as the models and background seemed so cool. Hopefully I didn't make a bad choice. I guess I am early enough to change if needed as I havnt invensted in the Deathwing or Ravenwing bulk of figures yet.

I am going to have to disagree a bit. While some of the changes GW is making to the various armies are not the greatest, on the whole I think it is a good thing if only because we will start seeing more army types out there. And I mean sm's and non-meq armies both. Another thing we won't see any more are the well known and often seen broken lists a la the Iron Warrior army of doom or the Siren armies, to say nothing of the ridiculous min/maxed sm armies that field more heavy weapons than Guard armies do.

The changes coming are now making all units in a codex just as viable as the rest so armies will be more diverse while not penalizing those who don't want to use the same army as everyone else. This will have the effect of evening the playing field and forcing players to use actual tactics to win a game and not just list building. We have all had games where we saw the opponents army and knew before the game even started that we didn't have a chance simply because the opposing list is just ridiculously hard to beat due to its very nature. That takes a hell of a lot of fun out of a game for many of us and drives more people away from the hobby than you might think. After all, why spend all the time and money this hobby requires if you get your ass kicked each and every time because of the opponents list composition?

I think it seems worse than it is right now because GW have not yet brought the rest of the codices in line with DA and Eldar. Once they do so, I think we will see a vast improvment in the game. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course and I am not saying you are totally wrong, I just tend to go with the flow and play the game as it is, not as I think it should be.

I disagree as it would make the SMs even more unplayable

That quote though I have to take exception to. SM's are anything but unplayable. They are the single most forgiving force in the game and the easiest to win with. The changes to the DA codex sure as hell don't make them unplayable either. Yes it means altering your list and most likely your tactics but at the same time, they are by no means crap now.

Don't ask me how I know this, but if you want to take an early look at the Blood Angels, take the Dark Angels codex and paint it Blood Red...

There is one thing which I sort of like about this "simplification". I often see the rugrats at the LGS decide to play a game, usually one rugrat, or two rugrats per side. Once they decide on this then they start to pick out their force. In between that and eating, an hour later they're ready to pull out their guys. In between that and eating and the usual taunts, another hour passes. By the time turn 2 comes around (2 hours later) anybody who would like to play wants to throw them out at the very least. Maybe the lack of choices can help cut down on the extraneous time - of course, having a list ready to play helps to, but you know the rug rats...

The fixed squad sizes bothers me less than the predetermined wargear.

It would be nice to leave the squad size variable, and perhaps they should have a trait in the future codex to allow divergent chapters to do so, but as it is index astartes may as well say maximum squad size is 6 with a lascannon and a plasma gun, because thats what I see except in a few isolated cases.

What really bothers me is the loss of the wargear list. Fine, so spacemarines, guard, and aspect warriors have typical load outs, what about orks and chaos? They don't really strike me as the sort who follow any sort of guidelines...

Also, inquisitors aren't going to be very characterful if they all have a bolt pistol and power sword.

I could go on, but I am moving today. I hope my armies arrive intact....

Lemmings wrote:The fixed squad sizes bothers me less than the predetermined wargear.

It would be nice to leave the squad size variable, and perhaps they should have a trait in the future codex to allow divergent chapters to do so, but as it is index astartes may as well say maximum squad size is 6 with a lascannon and a plasma gun, because thats what I see except in a few isolated cases.

What really bothers me is the loss of the wargear list. Fine, so spacemarines, guard, and aspect warriors have typical load outs, what about orks and chaos? They don't really strike me as the sort who follow any sort of guidelines...

Also, inquisitors aren't going to be very characterful if they all have a bolt pistol and power sword.

I could go on, but I am moving today. I hope my armies arrive intact....

Well, with the wargear listing and the 'hunters lists, I can always hope that JJ falls out of favor by the time that theose would be ready and leave Andy Hoare to do them and keep them pretty much as they are now

As to the minimum size, there is an ulterior motive to that and that's their lifeblood - selling models! If they change the minimum size to 5, then there's no reason that they ever have to sell you ten models. Once they no longer have ten models to sell and five becomes the norm - you'll be paying prices for five man squads that they used to get for ten man squads. That way the pricing creep will seem normal until what's left of the veterans remember exactly whats going on here. Eg. the 5 man squad for 22 now will get adjusted to 25, then 30, etc...

Not to say that pricing and gouging is the entire motive...I'm sure that there is some aadvantage towards store shelf inventory, same shipping cost versus actual value per order and other things a bean counter could justify...

Sorry to drag this into a pricing thread, but where fluff and money are concerned, money wins every time.

Pricing does see extreme, but then again I pay $4.00 for a cup of coffee sometimes and know people that have mortgaged their homes for their hobbies (motor car racing, militara collecting, camping).

It's all perspective... Heck, my old hobby, military miniature collecting, has seen similar or steeper price hikes. Soldiers I bought 15 years ago for $7.00 are being sold for $50.00 from the same people (Ron Wall). I'm not complaining because that definitely helped the ebay auctions...

And the more GW raises their prices the easier it is to justify $7.00 apiece krieg guardsmen

i've said it before and i'll say it again, for krieg guard or any other greatcoat guard, buy WW2 greatcoats and do a little conversion magic.. then you'll have minis that don't break into a gazillion pieces if someone looks at them and at a much lower cost too.. any guardplayer will have enough lasguns to support your modellingproject


of course, you'll be banned from using the army at most GWstores and tournaments, but at least you'll have a cool army

Col_Stone wrote:i've said it before and i'll say it again, for krieg guard or any other greatcoat guard, buy WW2 greatcoats and do a little conversion magic.. then you'll have minis that don't break into a gazillion pieces if someone looks at them and at a much lower cost too.. any guardplayer will have enough lasguns to support your modellingproject


of course, you'll be banned from using the army at most GWstores and tournaments, but at least you'll have a cool army

I am intrigued by this idea. Have you done this conversion yourself?If so can you post some pics and suck of how/what you did. Also where you got the WW2 figures from.

A problem with that is that Games Workshops's Games Day Grand Tournament rules states that you MUST use Citadel Miniatures, or their bits, for more than 75% of every model you field in order for it to be legal. So if you plan on doing official tournaments, then your kinda screwed if you convert a bunch of WW2 minis. In home games, or store tournaments, its fine.

Jlong, i haven't done any myself yet, since i'm not really into krieg, they just won't fit with the theme of my guard,
You can get lots of WW2 figs from
http://artizandesigns.com/ look under WW 2 germans, replace or rebuild the rifle add a few GW bitz and you're set..

http://www.boltactionminiatures.co.uk also has Germans russians etc in greatcoats