What does the community have to do for you to listen?

[Arschbombe]

It's unfortunate that things have devolved to this point where team members are quitting because the hobby has become work.

Are there any plans to recruit new team members? How long does it take someone to learn to build the files and become an effective team member?

Army Builder is the single best purchase I have made for 40k. Most of the credit for that goes the ab40k team, not Lonewolf. I'd hate to see it go.

[jboweruk]

Jlong, your response is much appreciated, and I'm sorry that you felt that way. I'm sorry if the others feel that way too, but we're not whining, at least I've certainly tried not to, I know it's voluntary and appreciate the hard work, it's just frustrating that we have given enough proof to satisfy a court of law over the sergant weapons issue but aren't being listened to. It's a small change that would mean so much to so many people. and would keep this program alive I'm sure. I can live with the slow updates to stuff like Apoc and Stronghold assault, if only somebody had said what you just did early on, instead of telling us to shut up and do it ourselves or go away, which does seem to have been the attitude of late.

Please somebody from the remaining maintainers, chime in, and be nice. And please, just change that little bit of code and at least most of us will shut up.

[Volfen]

I too have dropped Army Builder as a result of this.

The disagreement shows an inherent weakness in the AB model; one person in the "official" armylist writing team can cause the functionality of the whole program to be destroyed for those of us who simply want to buy Army Builder, read the codex, whip up a legal army, and then try out the combinations.

40K is a game system that needs something like Army Builder, so that you don't have to spend as much time making your army list as it takes to play a game. I'm sorry to see it go.

[fenrick]

It's unfortunate that things have devolved to this point where team members are quitting because the hobby has become work.

Are there any plans to recruit new team members? How long does it take someone to learn to build the files and become an effective team member?

Army Builder is the single best purchase I have made for 40k. Most of the credit for that goes the ab40k team, not Lonewolf. I'd hate to see it go.

I second this post. What is the plan to recruit new members to help maintain the files? I could probably find time to help and I could probably recruit at least one other from my group to assist? I already know enough to modify the files to meet my needs ( or my interpretation of the rules). As the quoted poster stated, what is required for someone to become an effective team member?

I play Space Marines, Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Eldar, and IG. I'd be happy to help with any of those, or others.

[PitFriend]

I'll third this. I buy every rulebook for 40k that comes out so I would be happy to try helping, although I am not at all familiar with writing Army Builder files.

[Petercles]

Dear Maintainers,

Thank you for fixing the Space Marine files. I appreciate all the time, effort and hard work that each of you put into the AB40k files.

I hope the community will take the time to thank you for the update and for everything that you do.

If you need any support let us know and I am sure that there are many people in the community that will rise to the occasion.

With out the work of the maintainers there would be no Army builder.

Regards,

Peter,

[PitFriend]

Yes indeed thank you guys. This is still my very favorite program to use for army lists and it would be nothing without all the hard work you put into it.

[jboweruk]

Many thanks, it means a lot to have the sarge back to how we know and love him. Bless you guys.

[Bonefish]

yay! this is brilliant.

I can now get back to making awful lists with a brilliant program, without which I wouldnt be able to play.

[fenrick]

Thank you for the updates! Still willing to help out going forward, let us know who to contact if you would like to develop some new maintainers!

[shaggai]

The biggest problem that I see in regards to taking on new maintainers for the files is that you need to know what is going on in the files. How the programming works with them and how to bend it to your needs. Many things that I have done with the files didn't always come easy. A lot of the finesse has come from not only looking over the history of the files, going back to the 4th edition, but even perusing other AB files such as the WFB, FoW and others, even the example files. Some of the time there is no help, just time to brute force a way to make the files do what they NEED to do.

I started in the files with the Witch Hunters, and started by making the necessary suggestions to get the Faith Point counters working. After a short time there after, I started maintaining them, and others until now it is a rather unwieldy "Keeper of the Power Armor." Within that time the Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters have been torn apart twice, the Space Marines have been torn apart numerous times (and torn asunder). So the files that I started with are not the ones you see today. For the most part that's done from scratch.

I say this as a forewarning that being a maintainer is not just correcting errors and doing small touch ups. If this is what you want and you are given something say Imperial Guard, when the 6E codex hits you might have to scrap everything that exists and start fresh. Not only this, but you will need to follow up with the necessary changes to Apocalypse, IA army lists and nominal IA model updates. No one is going to hold you hand and you can already see the audience that you will have to keep happy, hear from when the file is not on time, if the file is not correct, and if the file contains restrcitions that the community feels should not be there.

The point to all of this is that I just don't want to hear that you want to help and maintain a file. I need to see that you can do it. When I made the suggestion to take an unofficial army list from Bell of Lost Souls and make it into a usable AB file, the response was underwhelming. But this is what I need - to see if you can work and manipulate the files and do so competently so I can leave you alone and trust that it gets done. Because if I have to do it myself, I will - it'll just take time away from other things with has ultimately led to the situation where GW is now working quicker than they ever have and I don't have the time to devote to this.

[gungagreg]

Thank you for the recent update! I really appreciate the efforts you guys go through to make this tool the best list generator on the planet!

[fenrick]

Thanks for the long, thought out response Shaggai, but it was less than motivating. Given the reduction in the number of maintainers and the increase in GW releases, I figured the small team of maintainers would be interested in growing their ranks. That said, all replies seem to be focused (consciously or not) on dissuading people from helping out.

I for one would hate to see this group die the slow death.

[jboweruk]

I just think they want people who having seen that will already know what they're letting themselves in for. Would you rather they gave you a rose tinted view then a few months or less down the line any new maintainers give up in disgust? I'd rather they tell it like it is, so that when people do step up to the mark (God only knows I wish I had the time and patience and skill to do it) they stick with it and we get the quality we've been used to.

[Akaiyou]

I understand the point being made by Shaggai giving a 'realistic' view of what to expect. I also understand his frustration with people who quit the team and wanting to recruit "Loyalists" that will stick it out. What I don't like is that you wish to recruit but as mentioned by other posters it seems like you make your argument 'against' the people offering to help.

This is punctuated by telling them 'don't expect us to hold your hand' that is not a team mentality. Play any team sport you will see that to stay strong you do metaphorically hold each other's hand to make things work as efficient as possible. Sure if everyone could Lone Wolf it (perhaps thats where it gets it's name from?) then writting these files and maintaining them would be a piece of cake. But the reality is that in most things in life, having a team oriented mentality where you support eachother is simply more productive. HELPING YOUR TEAM MATES IS A GOOD THING. Some people raising their hands saying 'hey i would love to help' might not be anywhere near as knowledgeable and used to working with these files as you or other members of the team are. Assist them, be there to answer questions, and teach them how to be as good as you are. Telling them 'here take Astra Militarum, and you need to keep up with the supplements, IA, and dataslates for it too. No one is gonna hold your hand boy, ur on ur own. Also you need to get this all done on a 1960s computer and write code with this toothpick" That's just seeking to discourage potential help.

I played a little game called Dawn of War 2 (dunno if you've heard of it) it had this mode called The Last Stand. I loved that mode, played it to no end and was top class in skill at it, so much so i got bored with it and decided i wanted to try and 'fix' it. I went on the RELIC forums, the MOD community there was extremely helpful, answered all my annoying questions and pestering and posts of "OMG HOW DO I DO THIS??" for weeks. I had NO previous experience modding, or coding games a complete total noob, who's only weapon was the passion for the game. And within 2 months of hard work in my spare time, I had the definite best, most popular last stand mods ever created for that game. On my very 1st try. All because I had so many people willing to 'assist' and answer my constant barrage of questions on how to do things.

Looking at this AB debacle and how the team is dwindling down in membership I feel the urge to say "Hey! I'm willing to try and help, if you need help" like many others here. But after reading that long post I'm completely put off from the idea. That doesn't sound like the kind of team i want to be a part of.

I will continue to support AB because i love the program and I strongly appreciate the work you guys have done. So bug reporting will continue to flow in from me and I hope for all our sakes that you do get some solid recruits that conform to your view of what a team is.