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New Chaos Codex
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New Chaos Codex#1 Alright guys, what do you think of the new codex?
Last edited by Wraithlord on Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thousand Sons: kicking ass like never before
#2 I said like some, dislike others, has potential.
I think that the near total dropping of psykers has definately hurt some lists (My Ksons) and the abolishment of the special Legions (Night Lords, Iron Warriors) are disappointments, but with the new abilities of units, and the fact that there are no limits to what can be chosen, makes the new Chaos have lots of potential. Unfortunately, it also means that lists will become very similar, when units that are deemed "mandatory" for cheese/tourney lists get incorporated into everybodies lists.
#3 Having never played Chaos, and as such having 0 knowledge of the old ways, I think its a great codex. It seems very balanced with other new and redone armies, which honestly for me, is what is important. I hate seeing armies taht are just way over powered because it was somethign cool and fluffy, but unbalanced for the 'game' purposes.
The only "hobby" GW is interested in is lining their pockets with your money.
#6 I actually love it. Yes I am disappointed with certain things but overall it is a fantastic codex imho. Easy as pie to make a list and the variety of units that are actually worth taking is fantastic. The ability to have all of the unit types in every legion is big on my list as well I have to admit. Lol, I have been making lists like crazy just to see what I can do with it
 Thousand Sons: kicking ass like never before
#7 I am dissapointed with it overall. Mostly because it is now too simple. It is much harder to create unique units and army lists with because of the almost total stripping of all Chaos themed wargear and upgrades. I think that even the Eldar Codex has more options in it than this new Chaos one has...
While I don't mind so much about the removeable of the different Legion rules, merging the daemons into only two kinds totally sux. No longer having them take up slots on the FO Chart and simplifying the summoning rules is a great idea which would mean more people are likely to field daemons in an army. But getting rid of the different dedicated daemons (especially with the Greater Daemons) will almost certainly take away anyone's reason to use them... I like the changes to most of the characters, especially Khârn. Giving him strength 5 again, replacing his 2+ save with a 3+/5+ save and reducing his points cost will make him better than he was. Being able to build a completely mixed army of units devoted to any or all of the Chaos Gods is nice too, but annoying because it means I'm not likely to use any of my legion specific armies again... Personally I think they took too much out, but the things that they left in and changed were for the better. I'm really going to miss Axes of Khorne, Possessed Marines with flight and the Bloodthirster... Everyone Dies. It's the final and only lasting Justice. There's no greater good than Justice; It is said correctly that law exists not for the Just but for the unjust, I bow to no one and I give service only for cause.
#8 My group has played 7 games with the new dex now. We are still figuring out what we like and do not like. What I can say, is although each of us have a slection of models that are 'going to storage' for various reasons, we are having fun with the codex, armies are easy to build, and though complexity in build and character development has been removed, the focus clearly is on units and special characters may become more staple in Chaos lists. All in all, we feel its too early to tell, but the changes may net to be a good thing.
I can deal with the loss of champions, but I have no idea why khorne lost their chain axes, the new khorne daemon weapon is a steaming pile - but that's OK as I have other options... but why they poo-pooed on Possessed is beyond me. Scout??? Really? They got more expensive, put out cool models, then made the roll random as to what they would have on them. Who wants to put the points into the unit when you don't know what you get until after they are even deployed. Even if you get scout, what value is it if you don't know you have it till after you are deployed? Leaving something to a roll is orky to say the least and will drive most players away from using this unit. This was the largest dissapointment for me, hands down. Some no brainer good items =================== Abaddon Ahriman's - cast warptime first, have fun! Kharn Fabius + enhanced CSM with the Icon of nurgle (+1T, +1 S, Fearless) Fabius + enhanced CSM with the Icon of Slannesh (+1I, +1 S, Fearless) Typhus Elites with your favorite icon and lots of shooty or h-t-h + infiltrate Tz Tsons with 4+, AP3 bolters and a psyker champ with force weapon Nurgle bikes with T6 Slannesh Lash - wow! Warptime - wow! Emp's children Termy's with Tz Icon for a 4+ invul save Landraider dedicated transports for termy's instead of heavy slot Tzeentch psyker mutlicasting Powerfist on champions Greater Deamon's for 100pnt Daemon Prince with a Mark of Tz (4+ inv + multicasting warptime & bolt) Daemon Prince with a Mark of Sl with I bump and Lash Daemon Prince with a Mark of or Nurgle T bump & warptime Defiler FLEETING now and can take lots of ccw Predator annihilator Obliterators (and plasma cannons) Things I might use ============ The basic lord Chaos vindicator Land Raiders Raptors 35 pnt rhinos havok launchers (S5, AP5, Blast, H1, Twin-linked) 40pnt chaos spawn bikes with anything other than Nurgle Things I'll never use now ================= The basic sorcerer Just about anything Khorne Dreadnoughts lesser daemons Lucius Huron Possessed Marines - OMG they screwed them up Just my take, Tac
#9 I hate it.
I hate the fact that the Black Legion is now "able to replicate this that and the other" that were once staples of the World Eaters, Emperor's Children etc. Totally dumbed down codex with no special doodads to differentiate armies, probably for the benefit of the 8 yr olds with too much of daddies money they are targeting. I will reserve my total disgust for the "ruinous powers" book they are bringing out, as this "might" bring back in the spcific legions and give them some love. In the meantime though - I might experiment with a few games, but watch for exactly what I warned about previous to it debuting, which was that it would end up like Eldar armies. No one in their right minds would play this codex in a fluffy way anymore, everyone is going to end up fielding maximum carnage with all the very best options. I've already heard from a friends playtest where he declared that even though they are not tgh 5 anymore, the ability for anyone to field 9 Obliterators is just sick. They carved up a Blood Angels army apparently, almost on their own. This may sound odd coming from someone complaining about the army getting stronger - but to me, it's not just about "random model A" - it's about fluff and telling a story. no longer... it's back to Eldar and "my unit that is the same as yours but black, fires at your red ones" Buncha crap 
#10
Per the fiction and franchise history as I understand it, Black Legion, by definition, is supposed to have various Khorne, Slannesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle and undivided as well as unmarked units within its ranks. It also has Khorne Berserkers, Noise Marines, Plague Marines and Thousand sons units. Be mindful, these are units not legions. Black Legion does not have all World Eater, Emporer's Children, Deathguard , etc units. These are specific legions with their own primarchs. Per the fiction, Black Legion is supposed to have a hodgepodge of Marks and there are supposed to be heavy weapon teams, bikes, raptors, etc with marks of all of the gods within their ranks. Example: a Biker with the mark of Nurgle is not a plague marine on a bike. It's also not a Deathguard biker marine either. It's simply a CSM with a nurgle mark, but he absolutely is part of the Black Legion. Abbaddon wears the marks of all the gods, because he's the guy that aligned all the powers. Abbaddon, as the right hand of Horus in the Heresy, was number 2 in charge during the Horus Heresy wars. Horus, as Warmaster, controlled all of the Primarchs - (both good and bad) - as well as all Chapters and Legions. In the post Heresy wars, Abaddon is promoted to Warmaster of all Chaos contingents, remenents, fleets and battleforces. Abaddon still commands the World Eater Legion, the Empoerer's Children Legion, etc... However, as Captain of the Black Legion (Abaddon's personal legion) it is made up of a hodge podge of units from all other legions as well as the Sons of Horus (formerly the Luna Wolves). The World Eaters Legion has elitist units beyond that of Khorne Berserker infantry. Khorne Berserkers fight in many different legions, not just the World Eaters Legion. In the fiction, Iron Warriors have always included the Khorne Berserkers in their ranks for example. So, for me, this codex accurately reflects the Black legion's composition by including the various units and maintaing a value in units mix, but REMOVING the individual daemonic gifts from all of the champions in the units. Thus the focus of balance has shifted from favored individuals to favored units. That alone was well done I'd say.
I know where you are coming from on this one. The customization of characters is definitely gone. There are much more no-brainer choices. However, the customization is now available at a unit level instead of a character / champion level. When you have unit options of 5-20, characters that can augment an army, options to take dedicated LR transports for termy squads plus heavies, various marks that you can put on each of the units, I think you may underestimate just how much variety there is. Take each unit in the army codex and multiply 75% of them 6 potential marks (none, glory, 4 gods) then you have quite a few options. Will the masses learn the 4 or 5 compositions that tend to be more formidable, sure, probably... but is this any different than it was? If I seen chaos at a tourny and expect them to be a contender, I knew it was going to either Iron Warriors, Emps kids, black legion with heavy khorne influence... and I knew what each of those armies would basically field. Same goes for any of the lists. If you play enough, you learn what the basic 4 or 5 tourny worth comps look like. The nice thing with chaos is that its nwo designed around unit quality, not character in the unit quality. Thus, you have more of a force, and less of hero hammer. That's not necessarily a bad thing as 40K moves more and more to an objective game and less and less of a pure victory points game. I feel there is a valid strategy in quality of force, not just quality of models.
I think this is the norm of a player community, not due to a given book's construct.
Not against an IG, marine, or chaos army with an equal amount of lascannons. Not if the enemy army is Tau and they have a fair amount of jet packs moving from cover, firing, then moving back so Oblits can't see them. If the apposing chaos army has lash and pulls the obliterators out of position into the open, they can be streaded by predators and havok squads. I've already played with and against a list of 9 obliterators... there are options.
There are a host of factors with this kind of report. Was 25% terrain being used? Was there line of sight open everywhere or were LOS lanes blocked? Were the obliterators in cover or in bunkers? Did the BA force have the right comp to deal with the heavy infantry? etc, etc, etc... these are rhetorical questions. The point does remain though, there are several variables that go into a good / bad experience against a particular composition. Give it some time, I think you'll find that first impressions are not always as they initially seem. Cheers, Tac
#11 Chunky,
BTW: After posting the above, I noticed your icon was a Khorne symbol and seen another post from you about Khorne v Blood Angels - basically fearing that my red guys vs. your red guys syndrome. I also noticed you asking about the new Khorne Berserkers. I will admit, if any god / power got the shaft in the new dex, it was Khorne. No chain axes, no feel no pain, no axe of khorne was a bummer - no question about it. The Khorne Daemon weapon is absurd - who would risk using that thing? + + + However, its not all bad - even for Khorne. Kharn very well may be the best special character for the points in the new book. He's also quite playable if not valuable. BTW: Gorchild is a beating stick. Terminators with the mark of Khorne using furious charge with the multitude of close combat weapons charging from newly allowed dedicated land raider transports is not that bad of an option. Think about this... regular CSM unit with the icon of Khorne (all get +1 attack.) Now you take Fabius Bile and make them all have +1 S and make them Fearless. Khorne bikers or Raptors with a PF champ are also an option. Raptors are cheaper and may be more valuable now with a mark of khorne. You can also support the army with obliterators which you could not do in the past. I think with some experimenting, you can field a formidable Khorne army that may not be what you are used to, and yet, will be quite different from a Blood Angels army. Good luck, Tac
#12 Tac - I hear you.. I really do - good job on trying to make me feel better
But my comment about the Black Legion was not so much about them being able to field Berserkers, I kinda knew that anyway - it's more the line in the 'Dex that says sorta (paraphrasing): "They can now create brain altered berserkers as well as if not better then the World Eaters". See - THIS is what I'm talking about - basically suggesting that you might as well forget what were once THE premier HtH chaos army. It's just like the Smurfs on the loyalist side, playing down all the other chapters. I know it's just a fluff thing, and I'm hoping they still bring out the World Eaters with much better skills in "Ruinous Powers". I'm not holding my breath though. Also - I don't want to field Obliterators and Havocs and things in my Khornate army... it's just... not... right. I KNOW I should do to stay competitive, and I know this is totally stupid, but I'll feel like I'm betraying a concept if I do. Kharne is awesome, and this gives me hope that the WE will come out ok in the next codex. Still - I have to play this watered down POS in the meantime though - which means I probably won't play Chaos until March. Am toying with playing them in a last hurrah against the Blood Angels on Tuesday though (using new rules) and seeing how they go. I am thinking of using Fabius - and according to what I'm reading - there is no reason why you can't use him to adjust actual berserkers is there? I know in the old codex you couldn't, but in this one it doesn't say any restrictions - just that they have to be "Chaos Space Marines". Seeing as the whole 'Dex is called that - does this mean I can turn Berserkers? Or is this the old story of "it's unit name that counts"? Kill!! Maim!!! Burn!!!!
Kharn the Betrayer World Eaters: <B> ONCE</B> the embodiment of slaughter...now nerfed - thanks GW...
#13 I wouldn't think so Chunky. Maybe if there wasn't an actual Chaos Space Marines entry in the codex but as there is, I would imagine that Bile is only able to enhance them. Note that it doesn't say they can't be marked tho unlike before. So you could enhance them AND give them the IoK for the extra attack.
Thousand Sons: kicking ass like never before
#14 Here is a list I am thinking of trying out. Mostly Tzeentch themed but with a bit of hired help
1 Daemon Prince Bolt of Change; Mark of Tzeentch; Warptime 1 Chaos Sorceror Lash of Submission; Mount of Slaanesh; Personal Icon; Mark of Slaanesh 5 Terminators Icon of Tzeentch 8 Thousand Sons 1 Aspiring Sorceror Warptime, Meltabombs 1 Rhino 8 Thousand Sons 1 Aspiring Sorceror Warptime, Meltabombs 1 Rhino 9 Khorne Berzerkers 1 Skull Champion Power Weapon; Meltabombs 3 Obliterators 1 Land Raider 1 Defiler @ 150 Pts Dreadnought CCW (x2) Total Roster Cost: 2003 Oh and btw Chunky a friend of mine plays Khorne and has for several years now and he LOVES the new berzerkers. Just thinking they kick ass even without the movement and chainaxes. Thousand Sons: kicking ass like never before
#15
My pleasure. 
If it said Chaos space marines, you would be OK. Chaos would be the defined term and any "space marine" would count. However, Chaos Space Marine as all capitals is a defined term i.e. a unit name. Therefore, no, you can only use fabius to modify regular CSM troop units, not Khorne Berserkers as they are a different unit. Sorry my friend. However, I don't see this as a bad thing. CSM are realatively cheap with the Mark of Khorne get +1 attack. The bigger the unit, the less expensive the mark per model as its a flat fee per unit. Taking Fabius will give them Strength and make them Fearless for a very nominal per model point investment. Thus, you can end up with much more models on the field and let the champions in the units with powerfists do the work - the rest is wounds for him. If you can be tempted, throw in a unit of obliterators and a predator - just to see how they play out. Throw in a Defiler too. Give it all the combat weapon upgrades instead of shooty guns. That way, if he loses his big gun, you can go fleet him up to the enemy and whack him with 5 attacks from your CCW S10 beasty. If you can put in one land raider with a unit of khorne termys inside - all the better. Now you'll have 4 heavy's in your force to distract the enemy while all your infantry storms across the field to get to grips. Should be a daunting force. Cheers, Tac
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